D&D replaces races with species

[m7600]

Sorry, but as a Dark Sun fan, human/dwarf crossbreeds will forever and always be "Muls" to me.

They really need to bring Dark Sun back, that was a great setting : )

 

[mlnevese]

They really need to bring Dark Sun back, that was a great setting : )

Tried Dark Sun on later editions and I think it doesn't work well on anything but Second Edition mechanics. Defilers lose their main advantage of quick levelling, for instance.

 

[m7600]

Back on topic, here's another way to look at the implications of the term "race". If, for example, humans, elves and orcs are different races, such that they can reproduce, and their offspring are fertile (half-elves and half-orcs), then this means that they must have a common ancestor. In other words, humans, elves and orcs must have evolved from an ancestral humanoid. But this isn't the case in D&D's settings, as far as I know. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elves were created from the blood of their god, Corellon. And orcs came to Faerûn from another dimension, through a portal, and they were created by their god, Gruumsh. So how is it that humans, elves and orcs evolved from a common ancestor? They didn't. Yet, this is what would have to be the case if we're strict when it comes to applying biological concepts to a fantasy setting. In other words, if the term "species" doesn't make any biological sense in such settings, as it has been argued, then by parity of reasoning neither does the term "race", since it implies the existence of a common ancestor to those races that can reproduce with each other to produce fertile offspring.

 

[WarChiefZeke]

Tried Dark Sun on later editions and I think it doesn't work well on anything but Second Edition mechanics. Defilers lose their main advantage of quick levelling, for instance.

Dark Sun is absolutely built with 2nd edition logic in mind. Baked into the cake mechanics-wise and likewise with the lore. And I love it!

Stay tuned for more Dark Sun stuff in NWN by the way. It's been a long time in the making but that's because the guys behind the technical stuff are doing things never thought possible in NWN.

 

[Zaxares]

Back on topic, here's another way to look at the implications of the term "race". If, for example, humans, elves and orcs are different races, such that they can reproduce, and their offspring are fertile (half-elves and half-orcs), then this means that they must have a common ancestor. In other words, humans, elves and orcs must have evolved from an ancestral humanoid. But this isn't the case in D&D's settings, as far as I know. In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elves were created from the blood of their god, Corellon. And orcs came to Faerûn from another dimension, through a portal, and they were created by their god, Gruumsh. So how is it that humans, elves and orcs evolved from a common ancestor? They didn't. Yet, this is what would have to be the case if we're strict when it comes to applying biological concepts to a fantasy setting. In other words, if the term "species" doesn't make any biological sense in such settings, as it has been argued, then by parity of reasoning neither does the term "race", since it implies the existence of a common ancestor to those races that can reproduce with each other to produce fertile offspring.

While I agree with the logic here, it's worth remembering that in fantasy worlds like D&D, biology may not cleave 100% to our understanding of biology. (Or perhaps they do, on the surface, but the underlying rules actually work completely differently. I'll get back to this later.) For example, in 3.X, dragons could essentially interbreed with any creature under the sun, resulting in anything from half-dragon humans and elves to half-dragon crocodiles and bulettes and even more outlandish combinations like half-dragon tendriculouses (yes, they were an ACTUAL monster in a module I played. XD) You could justify this by saying that a dragon's highly magical nature makes this possible, but if races as disparate as elves and orcs and minotaurs can interbreed now, who's to say that some fundamental magical rule about fertility has just not been changed behind the scenes?

To go back to my earlier example, one scenario I once gave my players during an argument about "why don't you allow gunpowder to work in D&D?" was that despite the surface similarity, science does not actually work in exactly the same way it does in D&D. For example, while the phenomenon we call gravity also works in D&D, it might be that it arises due to an ancient pact between the Elemental Lords of Air and Earth (Earth won an ancient bet and thus anything that Air takes to its bosom must eventually be returned to Earth). So in a similar vein, perhaps the normal inability of races to procreate with each other might be due to a different reason. It may be that vastly different races still typically cannot interbreed with each other, but on very rare occasions, the Goddess of Fertility might take interest in a particular coupling (ardent prayers for a child might also increase this chance) and thus bless the union with a child.

 

[Xzarloxara]

A rose by any other name...

 

[mlnevese]

While I agree with the logic here, it's worth remembering that in fantasy worlds like D&D, biology may not cleave 100% to our understanding of biology. (Or perhaps they do, on the surface, but the underlying rules actually work completely differently. I'll get back to this later.) For example, in 3.X, dragons could essentially interbreed with any creature under the sun, resulting in anything from half-dragon humans and elves to half-dragon crocodiles and bulettes and even more outlandish combinations like half-dragon tendriculouses (yes, they were an ACTUAL monster in a module I played. XD) You could justify this by saying that a dragon's highly magical nature makes this possible, but if races as disparate as elves and orcs and minotaurs can interbreed now, who's to say that some fundamental magical rule about fertility has just not been changed behind the scenes?

To go back to my earlier example, one scenario I once gave my players during an argument about "why don't you allow gunpowder to work in D&D?" was that despite the surface similarity, science does not actually work in exactly the same way it does in D&D. For example, while the phenomenon we call gravity also works in D&D, it might be that it arises due to an ancient pact between the Elemental Lords of Air and Earth (Earth won an ancient bet and thus anything that Air takes to its bosom must eventually be returned to Earth). So in a similar vein, perhaps the normal inability of races to procreate with each other might be due to a different reason. It may be that vastly different races still typically cannot interbreed with each other, but on very rare occasions, the Goddess of Fertility might take interest in a particular coupling (ardent prayers for a child might also increase this chance) and thus bless the union with a child.

I really liked this concept of gravity... If I ever play table top again I'll certainly use it... and my players will be sorry I ever heard of this

 

[WarChiefZeke]

If you need your game rules to align 100% with your personal sensibilities and convictions you are not really role playing, you are self inserting. I despise this entire debate tbh. So I won't say anything more

 

[m7600]

Update: apparently One D&D will go with Ancestries instead of Species, as shown in this clip from D&D Shorts:

 

[shmity72]

because words are not context:



So yes. I made my movie with a married couple. One was an argonian lizard man husband and a bretton white chick wife. These were the characters they liked to play and it never occurred to me:

Putting them in a romantic setting would bring out eww ick! interatrial love gross! out of some of the general public. That was my lack of foresight.

So while yes change of our language names: race/ancestry/prejudice (whether to mean pre judge or be a bigot has been combined after 2k years and to our misfortune, incidentally), needs to happen, it ought be tempered with CONTEXT.

Conclusion: D&D did the sensible thing in regards to cultural sensitivity.

 

[Urdnot_Wrex]

Putting them in a romantic setting would bring out eww ick! interatrial love gross!

Clearly they've never read "The Lusty Argonian Maid" or "The Sultry Argonian Bard" or had a drink at the Lusty Argonian Footman inn.

 

[Zaxares]

I really liked this concept of gravity... If I ever play table top again I'll certainly use it... and my players will be sorry I ever heard of this

Glad you like it! And feel free to borrow and use the concept. I actually had ideas for running an epic level adventure in which the symbol or contract of that Pact was somehow stolen or destroyed, and as a result gravity immediately stopped working, causing widespread havoc on the Prime Material Plane. The party would either need to recover the artefact from the thieves (perhaps a rival group of epic level adventurers? Or perhaps a Demigod of Thievery wanted to test his skills? Catching such a thief, especially on his own turf in his divine realm, would be quite a feat. Or perhaps a more sinister force was at play, an Archdevil or a Demon Lord of the Abyss who wanted the artefact for their own grim purposes? It might be that it was one of the Air Lords themselves who orchestrated the theft!), or if the item was destroyed, they would need to convince the Elemental Lords of Air and Earth to renew their Pact, and Air understandably is not very keen on agreeing to something that was detrimental to them for eons, so there would have to be a good deal of epic negotiations and haggling in extraplanar courts and palaces. Sadly that group disbanded before we got to epic levels, so nothing ever came of it.

 

[Antimatter]

A new twist:

'Dungeons & Dragons' To Remove Half-Species From Player's Handbook, Claims The Entire Idea Is "Inherently Racist"

Dungeons & Dragons will be removing 'half-' species characters from their official materials because they are "inherently racist".

boundingintocomics.com

“Frankly, we are not comfortable, and haven’t been for years with any of the options that start with ‘half’,” D&D lead rules designer Jeremy Crawford explained of this decision. “The half construction is inherently racist so we simply aren’t going to include it in the new Player’s Handbook.”

However, despite their removal from the Player’s Handbook, Crawford assured players that “If someone wants to play those character options, they’ll still be in D&D Beyond [and] they’ll still be in the 2014 Player’s Handbook”

It should be noted that though players may still be allowed to create Half- characters, thanks to their removal from the core materials, such characters can not be used in an officially-sanctioned event.)

As of writing, it is unclear when the Player’s Handbook will officially be revised, nor when it will hit shelves."


Shadowheart (a half-elf companion from BG3): Disapproves.

 

[Chronicler]

Man, fuck that. How much you wanna bet the people making that decision weren't "half" anything?

 

[Chronicler]

Is "Half-Elf" the very best terminology to use? No, of course not.

Is removing multiracial characters from the setting entirely an appropriate fix? I feel like you'd have to be from the moon to even ask that.

 

[m7600]

I actually agree with the decision. Not because I think that Half- races are inherently racist, but rather because I think that a character could have, for example, Elf and Orc ancestry. What would you call them in that case? Half-Elf? Half-Orc? Neither seems accurate. Something like Eolf sounds better. I've already said my piece about this in more detail several comments ago.

 

[Chronicler]

I actually agree with the decision. Not because I think that Half- races are inherently racist, but rather because I think that a character could have, for example, Elf and Orc ancestry. What would you call them in that case? Half-Elf? Half-Orc? Neither seems accurate. Something like Eolf sounds better. I've already said my piece about this in more detail several comments ago.

It sounds like you can't have a character with elf and orc background, under this rule set, so I don't understand how that's a defence of it at all.

 

[m7600]

It sounds like you can't have a character with elf and orc background, under this rule set, so I don't understand how that's a defence of it at all.

As I pointed out, I've already said my piece about this throughout this thread. Perhaps you don't agree with my point of view. But I've already made made my case, no need to repeat it.

 

[Chronicler]

I'm not disagreeing it just sounds like maybe one of us misread the decision or something.

As far as I can tell, the decision you agree with doesn't allow for the situation you describe.

 

[m7600]

I'm not disagreeing it just sounds like maybe one of us misread the decision or something.

As far as I can tell, the decision you agree with doesn't allow for the situation you describe.

Noted, fair enough. We don't have all of the information yet, so there's a lot of speculation going on. That being said, they haven't explicitly ruled out mixed heritages. As far as I know (and I could be wrong, of course) it's technically possible to make a character with Human and Elf ancestries (or Elf and Orc ancestries for that matter). They're just not going to call them "Half-Elves". In that sense, I agree with the decision to drop that specific term. It's just a poor choice of words. But, as far as having interracial characters (or of mixed ancestries or heritages), I'm all for that. So I hope they do include Half-Elves and Half-Orcs, but I also hope that they call them something else.