D&D replaces races with species

m7600

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So an elf can no longer mate with a human to produce fertile offspring?
As far as I know, characters are still able to have parents from different species. Not sure if they'll be infertile. I'm guessing that they won't. So, it appears that the D&D concept of a species will be different from the one used in contemporary biology. That's not necessarily bad, IMO.
 

m7600

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I won't even try to understand the genetics of this....
I mean, are there genes in D&D to begin with? To me it's not even clear that there are electrons or protons in the Forgotten Realms or in Ravenloft, for example. I'm not even sure that there are molecules in these worlds, or genes.

But there's magic, which is the answer to everything that doesn't make sense. How is it that griffins have the body of a lion and the head and wings of an eagle? Did a lion mate with a eagle? Nope. So why do griffins have those traits? Answer: magic! 🤪
 

mlnevese

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I mean, are there genes in D&D to begin with? To me it's not even clear that there are electrons or protons in the Forgotten Realms or in Ravenloft, for example. I'm not even sure that there are molecules in these worlds, or genes.

But there's magic, which is the answer to everything that doesn't make sense. How is it that griffins have the body of a lion and the head and wings of an eagle? Did a lion mate with a eagle? Nope. So why do griffins have those traits? Answer: magic! 🤪
 

m7600

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Also, there will be no Half-Elves or Half-Orcs anymore. I couldn't find an official statement on this, but here's an article by TheGamer on this topic.

Quote: "Another big change is that hybrid races are no longer present, so you don't have Half-Elfs or Half-Orcs. Instead, you have Elves as usual, with Orcs taking the Half-Orc spot. Still, if you want to be a hybrid race, for example Half-Elf, Half-Orc, you'll choose either Elves or Orcs to give you the mechanical abilities, and you can just choose how your appearance is going to be from there."

 

Chronicler

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Much as there were a lot of problems with the evil "races" and such, I always felt like Dungeons and Dragons was relatively unique in actually creating room for biracial people in their fantasy racial structure. Kind of sucks to lose that.

Wonder how far that extends? Can you no longer have a dragon parent? Or perhaps, a god, say the Lord of Murder?
 

m7600

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@Chronicler: While it's true that these changes are largely motivated by the discussions on Half-Orcs and Drow, my conjecture is that there's a bit more to this. I may be wrong, of course. But I think they're trying to steer D&D more towards Hard Fantasy than Sword & Sorcery. If this is true (and I don't know if it is, it's just a conjecture), it makes more sense to speak of species instead of races.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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A very complicated topic especially when mixing RL politics with game lore. I was hesitant to enter this discussion, but this is not Reddit, we're under Pax Tavernus here, so I really want to share my many thoughts on this.

1. In case that even needs clarification for anyone, I think racists (or anyone who hates, judges or stereotypes people by any characteristics that have nothing to do with their character and behaviour) are assholes, period.

2. Even in biology, with animals, it's sometimes complicated where characteristics are different enough to say another race begins. Generally I have understood that biologists agree the genetics between different phenotypes of humans aren't big enough to be called another race.

3. Meanwhile, it's usually agreed that a different species means they can't mix, can't produce offspring, like an eagle and a sparrow or an antelope and a zebra, or if they're close enough like horses and donkeys, they can have offspring but those will be infertile.

4. To me that means humans, turians and krogans are different species, not races. They didn't even evolve on the same planet, makes sense.

5. So yes, if humans, elves and orcs are suddenly declared different species, that would be the reason why half-orcs, half-elves and all that no longer exist. Because those species can't have children together.

6. If the main reason for this is the fact that "race" is a politically loaded term that makes many people uncomfortable, it's a very bad reason, especially if it was preemptive actionism and not because a lot of players who belong to groups facing discrimination based on skin colour or facial shape took offence.
For example DragonKing, a user on Beamdog Forum who is black and has indeed faced RL racism, was the most vehement opponent of people who claimed drow being portrayed as mostly evil is racist, because drow are a fantasy race, they're not black people. I know one person isn't representative, but it's an example that sometimes fantasy worlds and RL have to be seen separately.

7. So to make people less uncomfortable, D&D races are now species. Biologically that means mixed parentage no longer exists, meaning an elf and a human can no longer have children together. So is that better in bringing people together, or doesn't it create an artificial chasm that didn't exist before?

Or they say "yay overcomplicated politics but screw biology" and two species can have fertile offspring, you're just not allowed to call them half-orc or half-elf, maybe because orcs and elves petitioned they should be called half-humans?
But you can customize them enough to look like one?
That makes even less sense.

From a gameplay perspective, I always found it interesting to have those mixed options for compromise between certain racial feats or bonuses, and for role-playing I liked the option of playing a half-elf who is with one foot in both worlds and at home in neither.

Also, what about in-game romance?

I'm sure I had more points on my list but I can't think of them right now.

Btw on the topic of "evil" races and fixed alignment, I recommend this post by @BelgarathMTH about the origins of D&D and where the whole original issue of some races having a fixed alignment came from: A war game where some pieces had to be on the other side of the board and were therefore called "evil".
That is a change I consider very positive by the way, that the rigid alignment system has been broken up, but the whole "let's call them species" issue makes no biological sense, because we humans use the term "race" IRL where it isn't correct, and overthrowing a game concept that could actually encourage tolerance (what do different shades of brown skin colour matter when your best friend is green and has tusks?) won't improve how humans IRL treat each other.
 

Chronicler

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I was reading that this might have been prompted by another incident a month prior where they unveiled the new form of the Hadozee, a sort of ape man from another planet, which was accused of being too close to racial caricature this time. That adds another wrinkle to the whole thing.

If these guys are literally from another planet, then they probably are another species, but if it draws on offensive racial tropes then calling it a species doesn't exactly fix that, and we're kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.
 

Chronicler

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Brief aside, while Drizzt seems to have been written as a racial discrimination metaphor, as in "People won't stop judging Drizzt for the colour of his skin", in some ways it works much better as unintentional commentary about a member of the colonizer or oppressor class unpacking all the bullshit they were taught.

Menzoboranzan is legitimately evil, and in the intended reading, that can have some nasty implications, but it's not like there aren't wicked cultures in the real world, and in some ways there are still some valuable lessons to be learned from Drizzt's journey to become better than the culture that produced him. Even if the subject is handled clumsily, that's not always the worst thing in the world, as long as the author's coming at it from a good place. Though it can be hard to know exactly where that line is sometimes.
 

m7600

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Yep, the Hadozee incident is part of this discussion as well. And there's even more to this.

We have to remember that D&D is owned by Wizards of the Coast (it used to be owned by TSR), which is in turn owned by Hasbro, and which is the same company that publishes Magic: The Gathering. I bring this up because the issue of racism has turned up in MTG as well. In much more explicit ways. Here's the most explicit example (but far from being the only one), a card from 1994 called "Invoke Prejudice":

leg-62-invoke-prejudice.jpg


Now tell me that those hooded figures don't look like Ku Klux Klan members. You might think that it's just a coincidence. Let me assure you that it isn't. Make a Google search for the artist, Harold McNeill. He likes to paint swastikas and portraits of Hitler, among other things. But McNeill isn't the only one responsible for this card, which is 100% racist. Wizards of the Coast is responsible for this as well. They invented the name of this card, they wrote down its mechanics, and only afterwards they told McNeill to paint something for it. There are many other cards that are just as racist, but they're a little more subtle than this one. But subtle racism is still racism. An example of this is indeed the Hadozee from Spelljammer. True, Spelljammer and D&D were not owned by Wizards of the Coast back then. But now that they do own them, they're trying to set the record straight with D&D just as they're doing with MTG. There's a lot more to this discussion than just Drow and Half-Orcs.
 

Chronicler

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Yep, the Hadozee incident is part of this discussion as well. And there's even more to this.

We have to remember that D&D is owned by Wizards of the Coast (it used to be owned by TSR), which is in turn owned by Hasbro, and which is the same company that publishes Magic: The Gathering. I bring this up because the issue of racism is has turned up in MTG as well. In much more explicit ways. Here's the most explicit example (but far from being the only one), a card from 1994 called "Invoke Prejudice":

View attachment 3350

Now tell me that those hooded figures don't look like Ku Klux Klan members. You might think that it's just a coincidence. Let me assure you that it isn't. Make a Google search for the artist, Harold McNeill. He likes to paint swastikas and portraits of Hitler, among other things. But McNeill isn't the only one responsible for this card, which is 100% racist. Wizards of the Coast is responsible for this as well. They invented the name of this card, they wrote down its mechanics, and only afterwards they told McNeill to paint something for it. There are many other cards that are racist, but they're a little more subtle than this one. But subtle racism is still racism. An example of this is indeed the Hadozee from Spelljammer. True, Spelljammer and D&D were not owned by Wizards of the Coast back then. But now that they do own them, they're trying to set the record straight with D&D just as they're doing with MTG. There's a lot more to this discussion than just Drow and Half-Orcs.
Ah, yeah, that's pretty damning.

I think that hood's popped up in a few different places throughout history, so I'd be willing to lend the benefit of the doubt that this was just an executioner or something, if the artist didn't have a history of nazi shit. "Invoke prejudice" with a kit based around targeting other colours is pretty on the nose too.
 

m7600

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"Invoke prejudice" with a kit based around targeting other colours is pretty on the nose too.
Exactly. And not only that, "coincidentally" the ID number for this card is 1488. That is not a coincidence. Here's an explanation from an article that I'll link below:

Quote: "the artist, Harold McNeill, is extremely problematic himself. His art frequently includes approving, even reverent, references to swastikas, Hitler, and other Nazi imagery.

As if that wasn’t enough, when you order Magic cards chronologically by set then alphabetically by card name, Invoke Prejudice is the 1488th card and was was therefore assigned the ID of 1488 in Gatherer. This number is significant to neo-Nazis because it references the white supremacist slogans of “14 words” and “Heil Hitler” (H is the eighth letter of the alphabet, so it can be represented by 88).

“Today, we will be changing the multiverse ID and removing the Gatherer card image for the card Invoke Prejudice,” Wizards said. “The card is racist and made even worse by the multiverse ID it was unfortunately codified with years ago. There’s no place for racism in our game, nor anywhere else
.”

 

Chronicler

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Now, you know magic stuff better than me. Does anything separate a card like this from Skyrim, where you join the warrior's lodge, and at the end of the questline are rewarded with the racist founder's favorite axe that does bonus damage against elves?
 

m7600

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Now, you know magic stuff better than me. Does anything separate a card like this from Skyrim, where you join the warrior's lodge, and at the end of the questline are rewarded with the racist founder's favorite axe that does bonus damage against elves?
I've never played Skyrim, so I wouldn't know. But this card (and others like it) show that there is a serious problem with WoTC as a company. And it's not as if racism among WoTC's staff magically disappeared after 1994. That shit continued years after that, up until the present. It's no wonder that they're trying to reinvent themselves today, by owning up to their mistakes and getting rid of all of the stuff that is unquestionably, 100% racist. This is the same company that has owned D&D for decades. If they wish to remove racist stuff from D&D as well, then they're doing the right thing. True, there will be cases in which the situation is not as clear. They might even make some mistakes. But can you really blame them for being overzealous in their attempt to set the record strait, once you see utterly obvious shit like Invoke Prejudice?
 
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