Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous General Discussion, Playthroughs and Minimal/No Reload Thread

[m7600]

Some other things that I really like about Pathfinder: Kingmaker so far:
- The weather effects. This is really well implemented, I love that rain and storm, for example, affect your character's stats, even if those effects are negative. It adds a lot to the mechanics of the game, as well as to the roleplaying aspect.
- The Choose Your Own Adventure style moments, where you have to read a page and make a decision. It's cool that they even incorporated these moments inside dungeons. For example, in the Old Sycamore Caves, in the Kobold side, you have to cross a pit, but instead of doing it in the game screen, you do it as a sort of journal entry. I really liked that, it felt like a tabletop RPG situation.

As for an update, my party of four killed a Worg and some wolves. That was a tough fight, mostly because the wolves can trip you. I enjoyed that fight, it was very challenging. Next, I picked up Jaethal and Harrim, and then I found Tartuccio. Honestly, the Tartuccio fight was really easy. The Tremendous Centipede and the Worg fight were the challenging ones. As for the battle with Tartuccio, the first thing I did was cast Hideous Laughter on him, Linzi did that spellcasting. Then I started to kill his kobolds. Eventually Tartuccio made a saving through against Hideous Laughter, and he threw a Fireball at my group. He killed most of his remaining kobolds that way. The Fireball did some serious damage to my group, but no party member went down (in the battle with the Worg, Valerie went down, but she didn't die). Next up I had Harrim cast Channel Positive Energy in order to heal the group. Obviously, Jaethal didn't get the effects of that heal since she's undead. Finally, Amiri used Lethal Stance, Rage, and made a Charge attack against Tartuccio. She dealt some heavy damage to him. I finished him off in the next few attacks, and then I killed his last kobolds.

So, my only critique of the game so far is that the Tartuccio fight should have been more difficult than the Worg fight, but it wasn't. Nevertheless, I'm really enjoying Pathfinder: Kingmaker

 

[Antimatter]

Yep, this sounds more or less similar to my own opinions when I was at your stage in that game. The whole dungeon was nicely done and it looks quite pleasant. Congrats on beating Tartuccio. In my experience, only rarely he's really dangerous - it all depends on his initiative vs your party's initiative, and also saving throws by your party members. When I last fought him, my party's initiative was so good that I managed to trip him before he finished casting Fireball, and killed him before he got up. So it was very similar to a general fight vs Mulahey (finished in 1 round). I agree that the Worg and the Centipede, especially if you fail Poison throw, are more dangerous.

I agree about those read-page adventures. Very well-done.

As for the weather, of course. It's so cool more and more games implement environmental hazards. Not all seem to like it, though.

 

[m7600]

The Sycamore Caves is really well made as a dungeon, both visually and mechanically. It has an old-school vibe. A lot of thought went into its design, even small details like the kobold paintings that you can inspect in one of the rooms. The info box that you get when you inspect them says that the kobolds tried to draw some dragons, but they ended up looking like winged cows, lol. Details like those are really nice.

Another thing that I forgot to mention that I liked is how you can use a torch or Linzi's Light cantrip to illuminate the dungeon better. It seems like just a detail, but those are the kinds of details that I love.

 

[Antimatter]

I also liked how you can decide what to do with the mites vs kobolds conflict, and how many options you actually have. What did you choose?

 

[m7600]

I remained Neutral with both of them. Mechanically, I didn't really want to fight a million kobolds or mites, lol
And from a roleplaying perspective, I don't want the "founding myth" of my future kingdom to be the story that I killed a bunch of weak, helpless creatures

 

[alice_ashpool]

I can never bring myself to play a non-neutral alignment because the koboldssss and mites are just too cute.

Glad you are enjoying m7600. Its a great game and it sounds like you are avoiding many of the early game frustrations that make people put it to one side.

////

A little Update on Kingmaker Alice, who has almost fully cleared the availible areas in Chapter 2, except the Dire Narlmarches stuff, about 90 days left on the clock to do Kindom Stuff and Artisans:

She is a Level 9 Fey Bloodline Sorceress
12/14/10/10/12/22

Feats:
1: Spell Focus: Enchantment; Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
3: Spell Penetration
5: Greater Spell Penetration
7: Spell Focus: Transmutation; Improved Initiative
9: Shake It Off

Spells (by level, left to right in order of taking, spells in brackets are bloodline spells):
1: Enlarge Person, Reduce Person; Mage Armor, (Entangle); Magic Missile; Expeditious Retreat
2: Blur; Web (Hideous Laughter); Mirror Image; Burning Arc
3: Haste; Slow, (Deep Slumber); Hold Person
4: Confusion; Overwhelming Grief (Poison)

With Overwhelming Grief in the bag she is capable of waving her hand and making most things collapse in tears. I have been playing an even more optimised Enchanter in WotR and that is just the GOAT, its a shame that Enchantment Spells at some levels (e.g. 6) are so lacking in the game (Cloak of Deams and Serenity) but getting Overwhelming Presence will make everything ok.

Fully buffed she is currently Overwhelming Grief-ing at DC28.

 

[alice_ashpool]

In addition my Video recording has also reached the same point, the end of chapter 2. I have been very pleased with how it has been going and feel like I am showing off the game pretty well, probably not 100% optimal but I am overall happy with the time-saves and order of tasks.

Here is a little bit of showing off with those greater enraged owlbears many have problems with

 

[Antimatter]

I've watched your video, good stuff, I've come to the same conclusions regarding buffs etc. It's spectacular you've managed the fight even with fatigue, which shows how much pre-buffing is important in this game. But I'm still not 100% happy that the game requires you to do that every damn time. I usually prefer to play against fully pre-buffed casters in SCS without pre-buffing myself, this adds an extra layer of challenge there. But in PK, it's just a must, you either die or win. There is no in-between, it seems.

 

[mlnevese]

I had to give up my completionist tendencies in both Pathfinder games... there are just too many things to do and so many different ways to do them

 

[alice_ashpool]

I've watched your video, good stuff, I've come to the same conclusions regarding buffs etc. It's spectacular you've managed the fight even with fatigue, which shows how much pre-buffing is important in this game. But I'm still not 100% happy that the game requires you do that every damn time. I usually prefer to play against fully pre-buffed casters in SCS without pre-buffing myself, this adds an extra layer of challenge there. But in PK, it's just a must, you either die or win. There is no in-between, it seems.

And I've even been trying to avoid "over-buffing" now that I have gained good CC, because the game lends itself to a buff then alpha-strike approach and I wanted to do a less buff-y playthrough.

What has helped this is that I am playing caster heavy with a Sorceress, Druid, Bard, Cleric, Alchemist and Valerie. That is 3 full casters and 2 half casters. It means that in this fight and the next, as you say, I get away with being fatigued and still having little issue with these fights. If I had taken Blinding or Choking or Force bombs on Jubilost most of these fights could be even simpler - but I consider that personally a bit cheap for the same reason I have not taken Stinking Cloud - it just makes things too same-y.

Instead I went down the Enchantment-controller route, but I do rely on raising the Leopards AC to 50+ as a distraction. When I get enough slots to make it worthwhile there will be lots of Fire from Flame Strike (Harrim before moving onto more necromancy stuff) and Lightning from Call Lightning Storm (Meli the druid, before getting the good Illusion spells) which will decrease the need for buffs even more.

There will also be some Transmutation stuff on Alice to make up the shortfall in decent Enchantment spells in game. I love idea of the spell Cloak of Dreams, and when it works it is amazing (Sleep as an Aura with no level or HD cap) but it is the most fiddly and unsatisfying play to try and get it to work. Even in WotR with my Enchanter-Melee Sorc with Demon Mythic Aspect of the Succubus which makes it not Friendly-fire-sleep my team, combined with wading into melee it is a pain to pull off since it procs at the end of a round afaict.

All in all a "low buff" team is going to lean more heavily on (so called) "optimal builds" (not really for me - its more optimising regular builds here, rather than the "meta"), Meta knowledge (so much metaknowledge goes into this playthorugh, but it does mean reduced buffing by using the right buffs rather than every buff), and good play (me being boastful yet again).

 

[Antimatter]

Yes, good observations, again. This is very similar to my conclusions: to play PK and have fun, you have to either:
pre-buff a lot
or use optimal builds
and use metaknowledge

I don't like any of these things and I understand the decision to "have just one more fight" without optimal buffs and/or fatigued. But that leads, sooner or later, to a reload.

 

[alice_ashpool]

Yes, good observations, again. This is very similar to my conclusions: to play PK and have fun, you have to either:
pre-buff a lot
or use optimal builds
and use metaknowledge

I don't like any of these things and I understand the decision to "have just one more fight" without optimal buffs and/or fatigued. But that leads, sooner or later, to a reload.

Thanks, yeah, agree on all points.

A little secret to how I manage to record with such confidence is that first off I have done these fights at the very least >5 times in regular play over the years and then, for the video I have replayed each part at least 3 times recently before committing to recording, normally I will play 3-5h or regular play sometimes twice, which translates to many hours of recording, then I will replay 1h chunks often a couple of times prior to doing the videos. Effectivly I have a parallel "ghost party" as one might if they wanted to do a subjectively "cheesy" No Reload run of an infinity engine game.

it does mean that every 30 mins of video takes at the very least 2 hours, if not 3 of actual playing the game and working out what I want to do and how I want to do it, Kingmaker is an immensely obtuse game when you look at it.

 

[mlnevese]

You clearly have way more patience than me...

 

[m7600]

Some thoughts on the NPCs in my group:

In general, I think that they're really good a characters. They seem original and refreshing. I really appreciate the fact that the writers didn't go for cliches or tropes.
For example, Harrim is, in a sense, the opposite of what you'd expect from a stereotypical dwarf. The same is true of Jaethal, she's not exactly the typical elf.
Amiri might be the most conventional one, she reminds me a bit of Red Sonja. But there's something about her rudeness that's interesting and original.
As for Linzi, I don't really know what to say. She seems a bit one-dimensional, but I have the suspicion that there's something about her that I don't know yet.

I picked up Octavia and Regongar, but I haven't talked to them that much yet.

 

[mlnevese]

I like the fact the NPCs have reasons to act as they do. Octavia has a deep trauma, Regill is deeply afraid of what is going on with him, although he tries to pretend, he isn't, etc...

 

[Urdnot_Wrex]

Thanks, yeah, agree on all points.

A little secret to how I manage to record with such confidence is that first off I have done these fights at the very least >5 times in regular play over the years and then, for the video I have replayed each part at least 3 times recently before committing to recording, normally I will play 3-5h or regular play sometimes twice, which translates to many hours of recording, then I will replay 1h chunks often a couple of times prior to doing the videos. Effectivly I have a parallel "ghost party" as one might if they wanted to do a subjectively "cheesy" No Reload run of an infinity engine game.

it does mean that every 30 mins of video takes at the very least 2 hours, if not 3 of actual playing the game and working out what I want to do and how I want to do it, Kingmaker is an immensely obtuse game when you look at it.

That's an impressive amount of effort you're putting into this!

A "ghost party" for a no-reload run? What does that mean? Like having a parallel game running with basically the same setup and builds, where you play through the challenging fights repeatedly until you're sure enough about them, and only then do them with your "real" game party? Or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[alice_ashpool]

That's an impressive amount of effort you're putting into this!

A "ghost party" for a no-reload run? What does that mean? Like having a parallel game running with basically the same setup and builds, where you play through the challenging fights repeatedly until you're sure enough about them, and only then do them with your "real" game party? Or am I misunderstanding something?

Basically that - two games running concurrently one no reload, one just for messing around and testing things, which is why I said it was subjectively against the spirit of "no reload".

 

[alice_ashpool]

I have worked out that it is possible to reach level 10 and have claimed all 6 available regions just before Ancient Curse Part 2 kicks in. I am very pleased with this. it means Constricting Coils for everyone ^_^

 

[m7600]

How do you folks feel about not being able to save the game in the middle of combat? Personally, I like it, it makes it more challenging. But, from a practical point of view, I imagine that it would be better if it was optional.

 

[mlnevese]

Just saw this in a Pathfinder Discord... that's how insanely powerful you can get if you go min-maxing like crazy... Character is in the Devil mythic path.