Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous General Discussion, Playthroughs and Minimal/No Reload Thread

alice_ashpool

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WotR Last Azlanti Normie Core Attempt

Challenge: Complete a thematic Sword and Board Fighter 20 Last Azlanti Core

Meet Matilda, devotee of Iomedae, rejected from paladin-school due to her Demonic heritage.

yN4dvpr.png


Demon-spawn Tiefling Fighter 1
Str: 19
Dex: 13
Con: 16
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha 9

Feats: Longsword Focus, Heavy Armor Focus
Background: Martial Discipline

H4FI5Hd.png


Big hits are the best

vzaEVzm.png
 

m7600

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In Kingmaker, I beat Fredero Sinnet with a really cheesy strategy. I don't think I'm spoiling too much for those that haven't played it if I say that it's a 1 vs 1 non-lethal combat between an NPC (Valerie) and this Fredero guy. The first time I played this game, he won the duel. In my second run, I won the fight, fair and square. But in this third run, since I turned off shared experience, Valerie wasn't at peak level for that fight. Fredero has a really high armor class, too much for my low level Valerie. She can only hit him with a natural 20. So here's what I did. I stocked up Valerie with Vanish/Invisibility potions, and also potions of Inflict Wounds (light, moderate, serious).

Some preliminaries about potions. You can drink them yourself, or you can "feed" them to another character. For example, if you have a potion of cure light wounds, you can "cast" it like a spell on another character and heal them. Roleplay-wise, you would be holding the bottle for them to drink, or something like that. For example, let's say that Charname as a healing potion, she can "cast" it on Amiri or some other NPC instead of drinking it herself. Now here's the interesting part: the same is true for the Inflict Wounds potions. Normally these are for undead characters (like Jaethal), who regain hit points by drinking these "negative" potions instead of the regular, curing ones. But you can also make another character drink a potion of Inflict Wounds, and it doesn't have to be a party member. It can be an enemy, like this Fredero Sinnet guy.

So, here's what I did. You can use two potions per round. Firstly, Valerie made Fredero drink a potion of Inflict Wounds. Mechanically, his armor class is irrelevant here. He automatically drinks the potion, no roll needed. Now, is that a loophole in the rules? I believe it is. It makes no sense to say that you can't hit him with your sword (unless you roll a nat 20) but that you can automatically force-feed him a potion of Inflict Wounds, lol. Secondly, I had Valerie drink a potion of Vanish / Invisibility, so that Fredero has a hard time connecting a hit. Repeat over and over until Fredero dies, lol. Super cheesy.
 

alice_ashpool

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There was some stuff about how to do the the water elemental EZ mode before:

Lann/Wenduag can be made almost unhittable up to Hard difficulty:
ps19gDU.png


Enlarge + bulls strength will give enough hitting even without 2-handing weapons; also Seelah has Marching Terror for extra owning:
tCJONRx.png


Potection from cold potion will negate most damage:
MzFQpDf.png


job's a good 'un:
arx5DTy.png
 

m7600

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Here are my screenshots from the duel between Valerie and Fredero. I didn't take pictures the first time I beat him, so I fought him again.

A few words are in order. I said that making Fredero drink a potion of Inflict Wounds is automatic, that it doesn't require a roll. Looking at the combat log, that's not true. It does require a roll. But it's a roll against the enemy's touch armor class, which in Fredero's case, is an 11 (which is extremely low compared to his regular armor class). So, most of the time, I did feed him those potions, except for a few times were I rolled a 1, or a 2, or something like that.

Another thing is that the damage taken from Inflict Wounds is halved if the target succeeds at a save, which in Fredero's case is almost always. But it doesn't matter, I had a ton of potions.

Another thing is that I also took a potion of Mage Armor and another one of Barkskin, these are important because Fredero is always casting Sunder Armor. That affects Valerie's half-plate, but it doesn't affect the bonuses granted by the armor-increasing potions. She also took a potion of Blur.

Here's the first screenshot. As you can see, if you click on the little arrow above the potion icon, another icon appears which lets you cast Inflict Wounds on an enemy:

Valerie_duel_1.jpg


The next screenshot shows the roll and some stats. As you can see, Fredero's touch AC is an 11:

Valerie_duel_2.jpg


Here's one of those rare moments when Valerie missed. She rolled a 3, plus 7 from the modifiers, for a total of 10 (< 11, Fredero's AC, so it's a miss).

Valerie_duel_3.jpg


I had to use a lot of healing potions, because even though I had Blur, Barkskin, some potions of Vanish and some of Invisibility, I still got hit several times. Fredero also regularly heals himself. So this is a loooong duel. After 37 rounds, we're still fighting. The combat log is hilarious:

Valerie_duel_4.jpg


Finally, at round 42 (technically it would be round 41, but that's for another topic), Fredero finally gives up. Valerie wins. I've only done this in turn-based mode, I have no idea how well this cheesy strategy would translate to real-time with pause:

Valerie_duel_5.jpg


Now, the question: is this strategy worth it? No, not at all. I wasted a ton of gold on all of those potions. It's just better to let Fredero win, or to have Valerie always in your party so that she's at peak level for this fight.
 

m7600

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I was thinking that should work with force-feeding Cure Wounds potions to undead as well
Oh yeah, totally. That's even better, since you find a lot of healing potions throughout the game. Not so with the Inflict Wounds ones.

It all boils down to how good the target's touch AC is. IIRC for some enemies it's quite high, but I can't remember which ones.

What I'd be curious to know is if it's possible to use Dex instead of Str for this. Basically a Finesse Wielding for potions, lol. Roleplay-wise, I think it would sense. I mean, if we're gonna allow this nonsense of force-feeding potions to a master duelist like Fredero, we might as well allow Finesse Wielding for potions 🤪
 

m7600

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BTW: the screenshots that I shared are actually from two different attempts at the duel. You can tell by the position of the pet Smilodon. The first two are from one attempt, and the other three are from a different attempt. The reason? In the first attempt, I accidentally made Valerie drink a potion of Inflict Serious Wounds lol 🤣 That little arrow above the icon for the potion is so tiny that if you're not careful you'll end up clicking on the potion and drinking it yourself instead of feeding it to the enemy! 🤪
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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Interesting that a tiefling can be Lawful Good, I'd have thought being part demon (or fiend, whatever) would maybe exclude that.
Mind you, fixed alignment, especially based on heritage or race doesn't make much sense anyway except for categorization and simplicity of some restrictions (in my opinion), but we all know it used to happen in other cases (e.g.drow) so I'm still surprised.
 

Blackraven

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Greetings fellow RPGers! First a hello from me, after a longish break. I hope you're all doing well in these turbulent times. Thankfully there's always the joy of RPGaming :) I bought Pathfinder: Kingmaker last week and I absolutely love it. Great characters, interesting world and story so far, and delightfully challenging! The restartitis in Act 1 has been strong with this one, which is probably not surprising for someone new to the game and its many races, classes, archetypes, deities, bloodlines, feats, skills, and what not.

My first character going blindly into the game was an Ecclesitheurge, but I couldn't stop myself from reading bits about the game online. So I found out about Tristian the Ecclesitheurge, and I felt like playing something else. Experimented a bit with Arcane Trickster and Feyspeaker, and I'm also intrigued by the Deliverer (an Assassin operating as an executioner on behalf of their God is just badass). But I seem to have settled on a Thassilonian Specialist.

I'm going to introduce my character, and I might start posting updates in the coming weeks or months. This cannot be a no-reload run but knowing myself I'll play as if death is the end. BTW for those who do play no-reload, do you count knock-outs as game enders, like in Baldur's Gate? In a party a KO isn't death, but if you're playing solo it is.

There is no single-class wizard in the game, which is a good reason to create a Mage or Sorcerer. The lore behind the Thassilonian wizardry I find very cool with its history of seven rivaling rune lords who unlocked the true potential of their respective schools, each falling victim to one of the seven sins. Besides I find them very interesting mechanically: true specialists with two opposition schools which they cannot choose but which are decided by the school of choice. And having to dedicate both additional spell slots for each level to one spell of the chosesn school. (I would happily mod Baldur's Gate that way.) Here's the level 1 character sheet of my wizard Gerrit:

Kingmaker 2022-10-25 23-41-59-27x.png

Now I feel I almost need to apologize for the extremely min-maxed stats, but in my defense, playing on the "Challenging" difficulty setting has proven to be very hard for me in my first few ventures in Act 1. I'm not looking for an insane challenge, and prefer to role-play and enjoy the story which is more likely to happen with a competent character. Gerrit is True Neutral and may stray into good territory because I don't tend to enjoy playing evil. According to the race description tieflings have free will and can decide their own fate, so lore-wise we're good.

Gerrit is a Grimspawn Tiefling whose +2 to DEX and INT and -2 to WIS look ideal to me. Hopefully I didn't get myself into trouble long-term with this extreme stat spread. STR seems irrelevant unless you want to apply touch spells; I don't as I find it too risky. High DEX is great for Initiative, AC and Reflex saves. Good CON helps with the Fortitude save and hopefully offers a bit of survivability in terms of HPs. Max INT for the maximum amount of spells. WIS seems good mainly for the Perception skill and to boost the Will save. But perception will simply be a skill I won't invest in. And wizards get good Will saves as they level up (unlike Fortitude and Reflex), so that even 5 WIS seems manageable. Low CHA hurts Persuasion and Use Magic Device, but a Viper Familiar and level 1 Skill Focus: Persuasion produces a respectable Persuasion score of 6 at level 1, a score we intend to raise further as we level up.

As a Thassilonian Gerrit follows the path of Envy, focusing on suppressing magic other than his own. This seems to fit his heritage, since Grimspawn are apparently known to be saboteurs. In practice the path of Envy means Gerrit is an Abjurer mage who can cast neither Evocation nor Necromancy spells (although scrolls may still be read with the Use Magic Device skill I believe). I haven't studied all the spells yet, but I believe Envy allows Gerrit to retain most crowd control, buffing, debuffing, summoning, and utility spells at the expense of mainly direct damage (without giving up all direct damage). Gerrit's level 1 chosen school slots are filled with Shield. What do you folks believe is the best Thassilonian specialization school?

Gerrit's principal skills next to Persuasion are the two Knowledge skills and Trickery (+4 DEX, +2 Grimspawn). His first wizard feat is Spell Focus: Conjuration, for Grease initially and perhaps other AoE stuff like Glitterdust and the Cloud spells. Other seemingly useful class and race benefits include a scaling innate AC boosting spell (Protective Ward), scaling fire, cold, electricity and sonic resistences (all tieflings) and acid resistance (Grimspawn). As an Abjurer Gerrit can get those resistances from an innate ability as well, and they don't seem to stack, so there is some unnecessary overlap there.

I intend to stay single-class first of all because I find the game complex enough as it is, and secondly because I'm not sure I like "shopping" for class feats without a reasonable explanation. (I've seen people recommend things like giving Valerie Thug levels, which is fine of course, and probably effective, but it's not for me.) Gerrit is only in Act 1 still, but since everything is new, it feels like we've already tackled some serious encounters worthy of a report.
 

Urdnot_Wrex

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Welcome back, I hope you and Gerrit have fun and will tell us about their adventure!

Of course I have no real knowledge to back up my claim, only been following and haven't played myself yet, and I know you're a very skilled player, so take my words with a grain of salt.

I'm not sure playing quasi-no-reload at a first playthrough without metaknowledge and without multiclassing is a good idea. Or did you mean you will continue at character death, but try to play until that point as if reloading weren't an option?

Because from my impression of reading about and hearing from people who have played P:K and usually prefer no-reload, it's a game where success especially on higher difficulty heavily relies on well-planned builds and pre-buffing, which means metaknowledge either from previous runs, or a trial-and-error approach to difficult fights.

With that said, there are enough people here who really know the game and you're a grown raven, I'm just trying to throw in an uneducated opinion about something that led some people to dislike Pathfinder games, who came from games like BG and a "no- or minimal reload without metaknowledge" mindset and realized a bit late that these games have a different design and learning curve.

I hope you don't mind my probably unnecessary warning.
 

Cahir

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A couple of points from me about Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous (I haven't finished Kingmaker, I didn't like it, but it has nothing to do with combat mechanics). Please note, that I'm not an expert tactician and I play crpgs mainly for story, world and NPCs. I played on slightly modified Core difficulty.

Having said that I must say that:
1. I don't see a way for me to finish this game solely using real time with pause mode and I'll salute anyone who will do it, even with full reload mode. If not for turn based mode, I'd bounce back from WoTR.
2. Using turn based I find this game difficult and challenging, and with the full usage of everything I had at my disposal, I was able to win (almost) any fight. There is just one type of enemy (not even a boss) I couldn't beat without resorting to console cheat.
3. To beat this game on Challenging with no reload would require a master tactician and deep knowledge of D&D 3.5 at least or Pathfinder rules specifically at best. To do it only using rtwp is for me personally insane notion.

But as I said, I'm no expert tactician and my experience is mostly with WoTR, maybe Kingmaker will prove easier. Anyway, good luck, you'll surely need it!
 

alice_ashpool

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572
Greetings fellow RPGers! First a hello from me, after a longish break. I hope you're all doing well in these turbulent times. Thankfully there's always the joy of RPGaming :) I bought Pathfinder: Kingmaker last week and I absolutely love it. Great characters, interesting world and story so far, and delightfully challenging! The restartitis in Act 1 has been strong with this one, which is probably not surprising for someone new to the game and its many races, classes, archetypes, deities, bloodlines, feats, skills, and what not.

My first character going blindly into the game was an Ecclesitheurge, but I couldn't stop myself from reading bits about the game online. So I found out about Tristian the Ecclesitheurge, and I felt like playing something else. Experimented a bit with Arcane Trickster and Feyspeaker, and I'm also intrigued by the Deliverer (an Assassin operating as an executioner on behalf of their God is just badass). But I seem to have settled on a Thassilonian Specialist.

I'm going to introduce my character, and I might start posting updates in the coming weeks or months. This cannot be a no-reload run but knowing myself I'll play as if death is the end. BTW for those who do play no-reload, do you count knock-outs as game enders, like in Baldur's Gate? In a party a KO isn't death, but if you're playing solo it is.

There is no single-class wizard in the game, which is a good reason to create a Mage or Sorcerer. The lore behind the Thassilonian wizardry I find very cool with its history of seven rivaling rune lords who unlocked the true potential of their respective schools, each falling victim to one of the seven sins. Besides I find them very interesting mechanically: true specialists with two opposition schools which they cannot choose but which are decided by the school of choice. And having to dedicate both additional spell slots for each level to one spell of the chosesn school. (I would happily mod Baldur's Gate that way.) Here's the level 1 character sheet of my wizard Gerrit:

View attachment 3241
Now I feel I almost need to apologize for the extremely min-maxed stats, but in my defense, playing on the "Challenging" difficulty setting has proven to be very hard for me in my first few ventures in Act 1. I'm not looking for an insane challenge, and prefer to role-play and enjoy the story which is more likely to happen with a competent character. Gerrit is True Neutral and may stray into good territory because I don't tend to enjoy playing evil. According to the race description tieflings have free will and can decide their own fate, so lore-wise we're good.

Gerrit is a Grimspawn Tiefling whose +2 to DEX and INT and -2 to WIS look ideal to me. Hopefully I didn't get myself into trouble long-term with this extreme stat spread. STR seems irrelevant unless you want to apply touch spells; I don't as I find it too risky. High DEX is great for Initiative, AC and Reflex saves. Good CON helps with the Fortitude save and hopefully offers a bit of survivability in terms of HPs. Max INT for the maximum amount of spells. WIS seems good mainly for the Perception skill and to boost the Will save. But perception will simply be a skill I won't invest in. And wizards get good Will saves as they level up (unlike Fortitude and Reflex), so that even 5 WIS seems manageable. Low CHA hurts Persuasion and Use Magic Device, but a Viper Familiar and level 1 Skill Focus: Persuasion produces a respectable Persuasion score of 6 at level 1, a score we intend to raise further as we level up.

As a Thassilonian Gerrit follows the path of Envy, focusing on suppressing magic other than his own. This seems to fit his heritage, since Grimspawn are apparently known to be saboteurs. In practice the path of Envy means Gerrit is an Abjurer mage who can cast neither Evocation nor Necromancy spells (although scrolls may still be read with the Use Magic Device skill I believe). I haven't studied all the spells yet, but I believe Envy allows Gerrit to retain most crowd control, buffing, debuffing, summoning, and utility spells at the expense of mainly direct damage (without giving up all direct damage). Gerrit's level 1 chosen school slots are filled with Shield. What do you folks believe is the best Thassilonian specialization school?

Gerrit's principal skills next to Persuasion are the two Knowledge skills and Trickery (+4 DEX, +2 Grimspawn). His first wizard feat is Spell Focus: Conjuration, for Grease initially and perhaps other AoE stuff like Glitterdust and the Cloud spells. Other seemingly useful class and race benefits include a scaling innate AC boosting spell (Protective Ward), scaling fire, cold, electricity and sonic resistences (all tieflings) and acid resistance (Grimspawn). As an Abjurer Gerrit can get those resistances from an innate ability as well, and they don't seem to stack, so there is some unnecessary overlap there.

I intend to stay single-class first of all because I find the game complex enough as it is, and secondly because I'm not sure I like "shopping" for class feats without a reasonable explanation. (I've seen people recommend things like giving Valerie Thug levels, which is fine of course, and probably effective, but it's not for me.) Gerrit is only in Act 1 still, but since everything is new, it feels like we've already tackled some serious encounters worthy of a report.
Hi Blackraven, nice to see you.

Thassalonian Specialist is certainly a "challenge class" - as full spellbook restrictions are rare!

You have already noticed that an unlisted benefit is that you still receive the School Bonuses of a regular wizard as a Thassalonian Specialist - that makes the class "worth it" imo. They are a super fun class to RP/play, but I think understandably unpopular. The extra spell slots are great in Kingmaker where spell slots are restricted (not so much in WotR where spell slots are 10 a penny)

On stats: personally, I might have gone with Elf, 8, 16, 10, 19, 12, 14. Your low Wisdom will come back and bite you every time someone casts a spell.

On the subject of Thassalonian penalties - losing access to necromancy and Evocation is fine, they are the lest useful schools imo - conjuration will make up for loss of evocation. The issue will be making most use of your bonus spells. I would recommend going full into Dispel and Banishment type spells since most Fey can be 1-shot in the main world using these and it's a unique and rare way to play. I played WotR a bit as a banishment specialist and it's great.

As there is no Divination school, Lust (Enchantment) probably has the best ability - the level 8 Aura of Despair debuff, but lose Necromancy and Transmutation. Transmutation is a very useful school so this is a challenge. You could get round this by having an Alchemist on hand.

Some other things - I don't consider a knock out a game ender, only a full death in which the MC is stone cold dead.
 

Antimatter

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Welcome back Blackraven! I missed your stories and how you highlight RPing above everything else. I agree with @Urdnot_Wrex and would certainly say that unless you get crazily lucky, Pathfinder: Kingmaker can't be played blindly with a no-reload approach. Maybe you'll get through chapters 1-2, but eventually, you will find yourself in areas/encounters where you have no other choice but to reload and come back much later. And considering this is a game that can last for more than 100 hours, you will get overwhelmed pretty quickly if each time you have to start again and go through 40-50 hours until finding yet another "gotcha!" moment. And voila, it can turn into a "game with reloads", but your reloads are restarts, which will get tedious and boring.

It's a difficult game, check out this post by @alice_ashpool about approaching it. Playing Kingmaker blindly with minimal reloads should be possible, though (but this minimum can very well be about 20+ reloads looool). I would say this: think less about reloading/not reloading, more about your character, their build, your party synergies, the story, all those small details here and there. Considering one other aspect of Kingmaker, the story doesn't really start until chapters 3-4, stick to your playthrough, and give the game a chance when you will feel unfairly treated (and you will!).
 
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