Bringing Garret from Thief into Baldurs Gate

[JustKneller]

We're talking about this guy. I started to post a solo run in the candlekeep annex with a vanilla thief, but it just didn't work out. He just wasn't competent enough for backstabs. Granted, part of this was RNGesus messing with me, but even still, there was a LOT of whiffing. Yeah, these are very different game styles (first person stealth game vs. isometric RPG), but it just didn't have the right feel to it. I still want to solo the concept, but perhaps not a literal interpretation. I'm keeping in mind that, at the start of the Thief games, Garrett has been doing this for quite a while and probably is the equivalent of a max level thief. So, I need to give the character some grace while they level up. I have a few ideas of how to do this.

1) Another vanilla thief (turned Bounty Hunter in BG2). This won't help with the first game, but I recently found a mod that un-nerfs the THAC0 tables in that they continue to progress past level 20 (per the tabletop rules). This will keep the thief from having a crappy capped THAC0 of 10 allowing their ability to connect a backstab to progress through the game. They're still lousy toe-to-toe (no specialization), but at least backstabs will land better. Downside, this is a little cheaty.

2) Bring him in in spirit with a halfling fighter/thief. On one hand, its less (or totally not) cheaty, but on the other hand, this is actually a more powerful option than #1. I mean, even if I play it as a thief and don't take fighter HLAs, I'll have better HP, weapon specialization, and bonus attacks.

3) Really lean on the spirit side and create a gnome cleric/thief (or shadowkeeper a halfling cleric/thief, but that's kinda cheaty). Hear me out. Garret can't cast spells or anything like that. But, he could explode undead (with holy water arrows) and his schtick was having a massive toolkit at his disposal (usually in the form of utility arrows and other gadgets). The cleric/thief is the swiss army knife class. This also partially sorts out my THAC0 problem. the cleric caps at 6 instead of the thief's 10. With the +4 for a backstab, it's hitting at 2, which is only 2 points away from a fighter's capped THAC0. A bless/chant spell would put me at only 1 away. Plus other buffs could come in when making the backstab really matters. The upside is that this checks a lot of boxes and be non-cheaty. The downside is that I can't use most of Garrett's weapons (short sword, dagger, bow) with this build (I mean, there's UAI, but I can't pip the weapons). I only can use his blackjack (club). So, this is really leaning into the spirit of things.

Anyone have any opinions of one over another? Especially if you've played the thief games, what do you think would capture the feel the best? Thanks!

 

[WarChiefZeke]

I think a vanilla thief works out just fine, or bounty hunter.

Traps are your friend especially at low levels. A level 1 trap from a level 1 thief will one-shot a lot of enemies you will encounter. I would suggest getting that skill up first, and then stealth. Stealth can be enhanced through items.

A thieves thac0 isn't terrible. 10 sounds bad, but when you add +3 from 19 strength and +4 from your weapon you're already down to 3 before you start adding other bonuses into the mix. Balduran helm and several different bracers will bring you down to 1. When you are in stealth, you get another bonus so your backstabs are closer to -3.

 

[Antimatter]

Play a Fighter/Thief Multiclass. This is one of the most fun characters, in my opinion. It keeps strong from lvl 1 to lvl 20. A lot of options in gameplay, hits hard, no need to worry about THAC0. Even as a halfling (without STR 18/XX or 19 in the beginning), you would still do fine, and then you'll find those STR-enhancing items.

 

[WarChiefZeke]

You could go human fighter for 3 levels then do your dual class to thief. You get a ton for basically nothing:

Higher hp

Eventual grandmastery

Extra base 1/2 apr

Access to fighter equipment out the gate like the helm

Higher thac0 and damage through exceptional strength until you grab the tome

And you still spend 95% of the game in your class.

 

[JustKneller]

I think a vanilla thief works out just fine, or bounty hunter.

Traps are your friend especially at low levels. A level 1 trap from a level 1 thief will one-shot a lot of enemies you will encounter. I would suggest getting that skill up first, and then stealth. Stealth can be enhanced through items.

A thieves thac0 isn't terrible. 10 sounds bad, but when you add +3 from 19 strength and +4 from your weapon you're already down to 3 before you start adding other bonuses into the mix. Balduran helm and several different bracers will bring you down to 1. When you are in stealth, you get another bonus so your backstabs are closer to -3.

I don't have traps at low levels. I play classic, so I have to wait until BG2 for traps. THAC0 10 is pretty bad. You finish BG1 at THAC0 16. A doppleganger has an AC of 0. Sarevok's AC is -5, Angelo and the demon knight at the end of DT is -1 and the Tanar'ri is -9. For a vanilla thief, you are probably looking at a +3 weapon, with a +4 to backstab putting you at THAC0 9. Strength 19 (if you munchkinin it) puts you at 6. The hard fights (that you generally cannot avoid and need to really land the backstabs) will easily push you to less than a 50% chance of landing a backstab. And, you're chasing those numbers the rest of the game. A lot of the tough fights have enemies with AC in the neg double digits. That means your maxed out THAC0 of 10 becomes a 20 right off the bat.

I also wouldn't dual. It just doesn't make sense for the concept.

But, I also can't complain. I'm the one turning this into a challenge run by cramming a square peg into a round hole.

Play a Fighter/Thief Multiclass. This is one of the most fun characters, in my opinion. It keeps strong from lvl 1 to lvl 20. A lot of options in gameplay, hits hard, no need to worry about THAC0. Even as a halfling (without STR 18/XX or 19 in the beginning), you would still do fine, and then you'll find those STR-enhancing items.

I've thought about that. It's kind weird that the non-cheaty character is way stronger than the cheaty one with an uncapped THAC0. I figure, though, I don't even need Strength with whatever I choose. I mean, aside from maybe the Belt of Inertial Barrier, a strength belt is the best thing to equip to that slot.

But, I'm surprised you said Fighter/Thief and not Cleric/Thief. Considering the playstyle, I figure the Cleric/Thief is losing a total of 7 THAC0 (final THAC0 plus specialization) which granted, is substantial. But, in exchange, they have the utility of a cleric. I was leaning towards the F/T though, for the sake of simplicity. But, why did you choose it over the C/T?

 

[WarChiefZeke]

If you're using everything available to you, I still think thief thac0 is manageable for what you need it for. For example, bless, aid, and chant are all level 1-2 priest spells and combined add an additional +3 (and an effective luck point via the chant effect). I've gone the stabby thief route in BG1 and 2 to great effect. Even solo'd SOD with one. I might not try to backstab Sarevok but that's just because I have always used kiting to some degree in that fight.

Come TOB, I dont always use my thief in melee for the very hardest fights. With Use Any Item, you can use the Vhailor helm to spam any level 9 spells you want for free every fight (use 2 or 3 time stop scrolls in a quick slot + anything else). By then I am packing loads of scrolls of every spell to contribute in the harder fights other than pure melee. Sometimes getting those magic protections down is more important and the thief can do that.

When I *do* enter melee, I like to do it polymorphed as a mind flayer or golem via the shapechange scroll. I haven't tried it in the EE, but you used to be able to backstab in golem form for hilariously high damage.

If you're willing to really lean into this concept and want the thief to be a competent fighter, consider bringing a Skald along for backup as well. Come TOB a high-level Skald song, and the Epic Bard Song from another bard, stack.

 

[JustKneller]

If you're willing to really lean into this concept and want the thief to be a competent fighter, consider bringing a Skald along for backup as well. Come TOB a high-level Skald song, and the Epic Bard Song from another bard, stack.

this is definitely a solo run. I want to stay as true as I can to the character concept while also making the character play like Garrett would, at least in spirit if a vanilla thief can't hack it. That being said, I think it skews the model if I am not doing any real direct confrontation (Garrett wouldn't). Even if I play a F/T, I wouldn't take any GWWs or other Fighter HLAs to make him better at going toe-to-toe. The concept is a little incompatible, though, so it's tough to suss out.

 

[JustKneller]

So, I had an interesting conversation with chatgpt about this. What a rabbit hole. Sometimes I'm too analytical for my own good.

The main disconnect between the games is a) a bg thief just isn't as competent or versatile as Garrett even optimized at max level and b) the vanilla thief isn't the strongest at "being a thief" compared to what you get by adding in another class. Adding in the fighter class helps close the competency gap, specifically with backstabs. Adding in the cleric class gives options for indirect encounter resolution.

I was bored, it was late, and I only had my phone so I really went down the path of the ontology vs. phenomenology of both options. Granted, I apparently had to explain the differences between ontology, phenomenology, and also correct its understanding of the mechanics (it was giving the cleric/thief the short sword of backstabbing with specialization). But once we got there, it got really fascinating in a nerd porn kinda way. Like, we were exploring failure state and stealth recovery loop indexes, methodological vs experiential resolution strategies. It was probably more fun for me than the game itself.

It eventually came to an interesting conclusion. If you were to pluck Garrett out of The City and drop him in BG, the fighter/thief would have the highest fidelity in form, but the cleric/thief would have the highest fidelity in function.

 

[Antimatter]

But, I'm surprised you said Fighter/Thief and not Cleric/Thief. Considering the playstyle, I figure the Cleric/Thief is losing a total of 7 THAC0 (final THAC0 plus specialization) which granted, is substantial. But, in exchange, they have the utility of a cleric. I was leaning towards the F/T though, for the sake of simplicity. But, why did you choose it over the C/T?

I like the better variety of weapons you can choose, especially for solo play. There are many weapons that provide unique buffs/are usable for this or that situation, and those are often non-clerical weapons.

 

[JustKneller]

If I was making my choice based just on weapons, I'd agree. I think there are a lot of great daggers and some of them (the 2d4 throwers) beat out the short swords. I think firetooth is the best non-staff backstabber. What weapons do you like for the fighter/thief?

 

[WarChiefZeke]

If I was making my choice based just on weapons, I'd agree. I think there are a lot of great daggers and some of them (the 2d4 throwers) beat out the short swords. I think firetooth is the best non-staff backstabber. What weapons do you like for the fighter/thief?

I tend to agree that Firetooth is the best late game, even if you are using it in melee since it is an apr weapon.

There is a longbow somewhere in the Firkraag questline that gives something crazy like +7 to thac0 once per day. I used that on a thief build I describe below when I really needed to hit something.

I think Pixie Prick is an underrated early-game weapon. The save penalty might make you cringe but my experience is that it is fairly reliable.

Poisoned Throwing Daggers are very cheap and plentiful for another early game alternative.

I like the better variety of weapons you can choose, especially for solo play. There are many weapons that provide unique buffs/are usable for this or that situation, and those are often non-clerical weapons.

My last full trilogy run was as an Assassin 5/Fighter. Due to the way dual classing works, my poison and my traps scaled as I continued to gain fighter levels, since dual classes use the combined average level of both classes. Eventually I was rocking max level poison with plenty of fighter HP.

You could probably do the same with Bounty Hunter, get traps high and get stealth decent enough where items can cover the rest.

 

[Skatan]

I've only played Thief 1 but I don't remember using traps at all. It's been a decade.. maybe two, since I played, but as I recall it was mostly about blackjacking people from behind, shooting different arrows and occasionally go into melee. Maybe Thief 2 and onward changed that formula.

So based on that I would say F/T or Stalker. And it should be a human.